Posts by Franklin Massey

44

Dec 15th WT: "Be like Solomon and don't go to university / don't be like Solomon and join a sports team!"

by cedars in

thanks to 'gayle' for bringing our attention to the fact that the december 15th watchtower has now been uploaded to jw.org.

it doesn't take long to reach the first juicy bit on pages 8 and 9, this time regarding higher education:.

it would be good to ask, am i taking to heart solomons example of treasuring divine wisdom?

Franklin Massey

"tell untruths when asked to reveal actions that could be embarrassing"

What does that even mean? Is it in reference to being questioned by elders about wrongdoing?

50

"All religious belief distills down to faith in utterly unprovable stories."

by Franklin Massey in

jw
friends

i read this today on the board and want to ask, is the statement true?.

all religious belief distills down to faith in utterly unprovable stories.

i feel this way sometimes.

Franklin Massey

First off, thanks for all of the responses. I'm seeing people on this thread that I haven't seen before. So, hey there.

Shador, I have read the God Delusion. Dawkins comes on strong but many of his points are sound. Your admission of ideas being taken with a grain of salt shows humility on your part. Unfortunately, that trait is often lacking when believers and non-believers express their viewpoints. We seem to have this tendency to want to be right about the unknowable.

Giordano, Is less religion in the world really good news? Do you think that religion is more a force for bad or a force for good? Do some people NEED religion?

Band on the Run, I agree that these stories were meant to serve some purpose. Teaching morals, lessons, etc. When these stories teach something that is considered to be "true," as in, "treat people the way you want to be treated," many believers point to that as being so universally true that it must be from a Divine source. One kernel of spiritual "truth" can be a little building block for faith. But I'm a skeptic. I need more. I lack faith. So where do I go to find it?

Flipper, Religulous: Good film. I too recommend it.

I need to read some Jung.

tec, Allow me to argue that most people learn of Christ through some sort of religion. Would that be a fair statement? If so, then wouldn't that belief have some semblance of religion, even if the believer moved on from organized religion later. And if not, would you say that your ideas are entirely your own and no religion aided in your understanding of Christ? I ask because I hear others talk of Christ in this way but since I haven't had that experience, I can't relate. Also, could you expound on you reply to Flipper about Jesus giving you answers? How does that work?

Mad Sweeney, "...intelligent custodians of our planet and civilization." Lovely. That is something I can believe in.

Qcmbr, I'm glad you jumped in on this since the topic is based on something you said on a separate thread ;)

Gladiator brings up an interesting point regarding "freelance" believers. I can respect that. I also find that the "freelance" types can better articulate their unique viewpoint compared with the average religious follower. It's a fault of mine but when I hear a response that sounds like manufactured groupspeak regarding a religious - or nonreligious - position, my gag reflex goes into overdrive. It's one of my complaints about JWs.

OTWO, You're right, "religious" is a loaded term. But I think we've done fairly well in this thread not getting too hung up on it. You also said, "IF THERE IS NO WAY TO CONFIRM OR DISPROVE A CLAIM, THERE IS NO REASON TO ATTACH ANY SIGNIFICANCE TO IT." I would agree but only under the condition that every avenue to confirm/disprove has been taken.

How could one of these so-called "unprovable stories" be proven correct? What would it take to convince a non-believer?

For those who haven't weighed in, what do you think about this statement "All religious belief distills down to faith in utterly unprovable stories?"

50

"All religious belief distills down to faith in utterly unprovable stories."

by Franklin Massey in

jw
friends

i read this today on the board and want to ask, is the statement true?.

all religious belief distills down to faith in utterly unprovable stories.

i feel this way sometimes.

Franklin Massey

I read this today on the board and want to ask, is the statement true?

All religious belief distills down to faith in utterly unprovable stories.

I feel this way sometimes. But then I have to consider that my exodus from religion is relatively new. My bias is too strong for me to be totally objective. I don't think I've yet acheived my balance when it comes to these types of questions.

So I'm asking you, no matter what your persuasion, is the above statement true? And why do you answer so?

79

For the board atheists....

by Jack C. in

jw
friends

this is a personal observation and certainly not representative of all atheists.

i enjoy discussions with folks of this persuasion; in general they appear well read and somewhat more educated than many believers.

as a group most atheists cringe and become insensed when discussing the existence of a deity with believers especially fundamentalists.

Franklin Massey

Awen, I have no problem discussing the Bible with a believer who wants to use it to explain their stance. As a former believer, however, I feel that bringing the Bible into the discussion is like bringing a noodle to a knife fight. The Bible can be too easily picked apart when it attempts to prove God. As New Chapter said earlier, for many non-believers, the Bible was the first step toward disbelief.

I consider myself an open-minded agnostic headed toward atheism. But I will always have discussions with open minded believers on the subject of metaphysics because first, I could be wrong - and maybe I missed something along the way - and second, I think both camps have a lot that they can agree on. Instead of our religious beliefs tearing us apart, we should try to come together.

I have had many believers, including JWs, share personal experiences with me of how God has worked with them in their life to acheive positive results. Although I'm not a believer and not superstitious, I can't argue with positive results. In fact, I celebrate positive results. Plus, hearing how much the experience means to the believer hits an emotional chord with me. The stories can be absolutely beautiful, whether I believe them to be of divine origin or not.

An atheist and a believer have a discussion on being good to their neighbors. The atheist finds motivation in an instinctual sense of moral good that is a product of evolution. They also have understanding that at this point in the road of human evolution, it is our duty to be good to one another as it leads to a better existence now and a better chance of the human species surviving into the future. The believer finds motivation in an instinctual sense of moral good that they believe was put there by God. In addition, God says in the holy books to be loving and treat each other well. If one does this, they will be happier and have a better future in the afterlife. Both viewpoints help both people make better choices now, while simultaneously thinking abut the future results of their actions. This is where I feel that the expression "all roads leading to the same place" applies - even allowing for non-believers to travel on the road as well.

79

For the board atheists....

by Jack C. in

jw
friends

this is a personal observation and certainly not representative of all atheists.

i enjoy discussions with folks of this persuasion; in general they appear well read and somewhat more educated than many believers.

as a group most atheists cringe and become insensed when discussing the existence of a deity with believers especially fundamentalists.

Franklin Massey

My personal beliefs are far removed from any particular holy book. I see the value of some parts of the Bible, especially the teachings attributed to Jesus - and also the Proverbs, because of the unique take on issues facing humans. I do not, however, attribute my disbelief to the Bible or religion in general. If a God exists, and I am not so sure that it does, it would have to be quite far removed from any religion professing to operate in it's honor. Religion was a step in my disbelief, but no longer plays a large part in my thinking.

A problem arises, though, when a believer wants to talk with me about God. I usually have to go back and speak on scripture as they see it as a prerequisite to a discussion on God. If I refuse to acknowledge the Bible as an authority, most are quick to end the conversation.

Of course, I could always be wrong. We're talking about the currently unprovable here. I'm looking forward to having this same conversation in five years to see where I stand. As for now, I'm just doing my best based on the evidence I can gather and the sense I can make of it.

38

Poll: What do you believe now?

by Lunatic Faith in

jw
friends

i have been noticing we ex-jw's are very different in our choices of beliefs once we leave the wts.

some choose christianity, others flee christianity.

some find they can't beieve in anything any more.

Franklin Massey

Agnostic leaning toward Athiest but willing to consider reasonable arguments.

44

Victoria, Australia: All five cases made it through the court. Nothing thrown out!

by AndersonsInfo in

on the suggestion of the office of public prosecutions, mr steven unthank made application to the magistrate that the case be transferred to the summary stream and listed as a summary mention on 11 october 2011.. .

following a request by mr steven unthank, the magistrate ordered that the case be transferred to the summary stream and listed as a summary mention on 11 october 2011.. .

Franklin Massey

Satan is attacking Jehovah's people. Satan is making lies look true. Satan is trying to confuse us. Apostates are trying to pull us away from the Organization. We always knew government would turn on our religion.

Pick any one of those above repsonses and that's what will happen if JWs see this in the media. They are conditioned well by their leadership. Negative comments about JWs, whether they are true or not, are to be treated like poison.

5

WT on education/quitting school

by compound complex in

jw
friends

http://www.watchtower.org/e/201011c/article_01.htm.

fair and balanced?.

cc.

Franklin Massey

This article, at face value is pretty fair.

Positive messages I gleaned from the article:

- School can be hard but that's no reason to give up.

- Set goals and stick to them.

- Don't drop out for selfish reasons.

- Adulthood is just around the corner - so get ready.

- Drop outs have a harder time acheiving success as adults.

Negative messages:

- Just do the minimum that the law requires.

- Honorable reasons for quitting...(IMO, this shouldn't even be discussed as it provides potential excuses for quitting. If an emergency situation arises, then that bridge can be crossed.)

For the public, this is a safe article. But the JW-trained mind will read this article in an entirely different manner. For instance:

- "Volunteer service." That term has a different meaning to JWs. Most JWs consider working for The Watchtower Society as the only legitimate form of volunteer service. If a young person tried to join The Peace Corps, Habitat for Humanity, or spend their Saturdays working at the local soup kitchen, they would likely be warned about the triviality of such endeavors when compared to the more important work of converting new members to the JW religion. An example of this was found in this summer's District Convention drama. One character, a teenage girl who was showing signs of "worldly thinking" said that instead of full time service to the Watchtower Society, she would rather pursue humanitarian work. To non-JWs, that would be a fine goal. To JWs, that is misguided and by the end of the drama, she appeared to have dropped that goal.

- "Your teachers and others will no doubt give you advice on how much schooling you should have. Ultimately, though, your parents have the authority to make the final decision." JW parents are constantly reminded of the dangers of higher education. Within the JW religion, followers are warned about the persuasive tactics of teachers and guidance counselors who will encourage youth to make plans for college. Their advice is considered good-intentioned but ultimately, not worth much since they clearly don't uphold the same high standards as JWs.

- "A primary function of education is to prepare you to find a job that will help you support yourself and provide for any family you may eventually have." Sounds reasonable, right? It is, except for one thing. Not mentioned in this equation is the high level of activity expected from JWs by the the Watchtower Society. Each family is expected to be "in good standing" which usually requires attendance of weeknight and weekend meetings, dedicated time for family worship at home, regular private Bible study, and weekly participation in the door-to-door ministry. That is the bare minimum of activity required for a JW family to "fit in" in the congregation dynamic as a "good example." A conservative estimate puts the total of required service at approximately 7-8 hours, per person, per week. That's NOT counting preparation time, such as getting a family dressed and groomed, or travel time to and from the Kingdom Hall. If a family head is concerned about the material needs of the family to the point that service to the the Watchtower Society is replaced with secular pursuits, like working an extra shift on a meeting night, that head will risk being counselled by the elders in the congregation. If the counsel isn't heeded, the whole family may be labled "spiritually weak."

These articles are tricky. The public is given the impression that JWs are really normal, just like everybody else. JWs read the article and feel the pressure to conform to idealogies not mentioned in the public edition of the magazine but rather, those learned through the "inside editions" of the magazines and at JW meetings, assemblies and conventions.

A strange thing happens though when a JW is called out for their religion's unconventional stance on a matter such as education. They will refer to the more polished message of an article like this, and defend The Society by saying how balanced the approach is. All the while, they avoid mentioning the teachings that REALLY shape their values, like the most recent advice found in the November 15th, 2011 Watchtower, inside edition:

Vigilant Christians refrain from using the world to the full with regard to higher education. Many people in this world consider higher education an indispensable stepping-stone to prestige and an affluent life. But we Christians live as temporary residents and pursue different goals. We avoid “minding lofty things.” (Rom. 12:16; Jer.45:5) Since we are Jesus’ followers, we heed his warning: “Keep your eyes open and guard against every sort of covetousness, because evenwhen a person has an abundance his life does not result from the things he possesses.” (Luke 12:15) Consequently, young Christians are encouraged to pursue spiritual goals, getting only as much education as is required to meet their basic needs while focusing on preparing themselves to serve Jehovah ‘with their whole heart, soul, strength, and mind.’ (Luke 10:27) By doing so, they can become “rich toward God.”

44

Victoria, Australia: All five cases made it through the court. Nothing thrown out!

by AndersonsInfo in

on the suggestion of the office of public prosecutions, mr steven unthank made application to the magistrate that the case be transferred to the summary stream and listed as a summary mention on 11 october 2011.. .

following a request by mr steven unthank, the magistrate ordered that the case be transferred to the summary stream and listed as a summary mention on 11 october 2011.. .

Franklin Massey

Thanks for the update, Barbara. You are a class act.

30

More bad press for Jehovah's Witnesses!... Mother murders two children.

by koolaid-man in

jw
friends

http://armenianow.com/news/31667/armenia_mother_murderer_ararat_town.

select edition english ??????

?local news, global audiencemonday, september 12, 2011 last update 1 day ago </form></form></form></form>presidents .

Franklin Massey

God damn it, Rick. This story is tragic and your pathetic attempt to sensationalize it to further your ridiculous campaign is purely disgusting.